Atheists Are Just as Ignorant as Those They Find Ignorant.
I wonder if there is a better way to end this snowball effect. 😦
Sadly, it seems to be too far downhill, and they’re predicting record snow…
Quack: you don’t think it’s possible for some to choose to take it in a different direction? I’m trying (and I am an atheist). Don’t get me wrong – I’m nowhere near perfect at it, but I am definitely giving an effort at trying to make this whole thing more like dialogue instead of little kids in a playground yelling “you’re dumb”, “no you’re the one that’s dumb”, “he started it”, “he deserved it”. What do you think Quack – join with me even though we disagree? I respect you even though our conclusions are different.
Absolutely Howie. I’m with you 100% on changing the tone and having a mutual respect for differing perspectives. Personally, I can roll either way with it — I’m used to the nastiness and hostility of the blogosphere. But yeah, I don’t consider it useful to hold anyone in contempt for their opinions or even their opinions of me. You’ve always been pleasant, and though we may not agree, I’m always inclined to consider your perspective because of your respectfulness.
Awesome! I hope others will take similar steps forward. But you are right, I am also aware of the fact that the blogosphere sort of has that dynamic about it that breeds nastiness – the kind that doesn’t seem to arise in face to face talks about this stuff (well, at least not near as much 😉 ). I really can’t change that dynamic and I realize it’s an uphill battle trying to change people’s styles, so I don’t try and do that. But I do like to find people like you who can perhaps make an effort with me to move things in a more positive direction even though religion is so tough to talk about. Thanks Quack!
Howie – You are not ignorant because your spiritual faculty is still operational. When the intellectual pride causes the ego to inflate beyond a certain point, the spiritual faculty is stifled. You are no where near that point.
Hey Marc – I guess people probably define ignorant (as well as spiritual) in different ways, but either way that was a very kind thing of you to say. Thank you Marc! I’ve been enjoying reading the discussions you’ve been having on Nate’s blog – not just because you and Arch are absolutely hilarious sometimes, but because I always like learning different perspectives even if I currently have different conclusions.
Marc was ignoring my blogs content, specifically a short 6min audio clip on Pope Alexander the Sixth (15thCentury), and my blog represents both my values and faith, and in this instance, my view. I decided I wasn’t gonna give Marc any more of my time, and this is what he tried to post.
quote : ” I don’t disrespect your point of view Gregory, I just don’t agree with it. If you want to be a bigger prick than Ark, I won’t bother posting anymore. Even Ark, with whom I seldom agree with, welcomes my posts on his blog. “
Gregory – I am sorry to upset you by disagreeing with your POV. Given how you feel, I should not have posted on your blog. Please feel free to remove anything that I posted. If you are only interested in an affirmation of your own views, the blogosphere can be a great disappointment.
Marc, I did remove some comments, but will keep those concerning the eastern orthodox faiths, in the context of western protestant faiths and catholicism, to help teach visitors
Quack… got the news report on your crazy snowfall… hope you had enough food, etc.
I’m in southern canada, and we’ve had 100cm (40 inches) snow since december, with average temps in the – 20’s C (-10 F) degrees range, and 21 days of mid -30 C (-30 F) degree temps, with windchills in the -40 C (-40 F) degrees ! Forecasts say most of february will be the same, making this year’s winter the worst cold weather in our history, not to mention snowfall.
When the air is sooo cold there’s virtually NO moisture in it and that damages our lungs, even when indoors, unless one humidifies. I didn’t know this, and last january had serious damage to my lungs and called 911 for a paramedics transport and treatment ; one day in emergency and one week on-ward.
On the ” good ” side, my room mate was a 94yr old swede named Helgi, and he was a kind Heart and clear, strong mind, and talker, which I loved 🙂 Helgi’s friends and family also visited him every day and our conversations were fabulous !
In my ” storm “, you think God and Jesus gave me some sunshine to comfort me (^.^)
Gregory, it’s a wild winter — the wildest I’ve experienced, completely unpredictible.
We live in a hostile environment which constantly threatens to destroy us, seeking a balance which will not exist until the end of the age, when all things are restored to their original splendor. Our degenorate organic shells — every single particle which comprises our flesh — will reform into immortal bodies at the resurrection. Until then, hang on for a wild ride my friend!
He is a very talented teen. Thanks for sharing! (Gives me hope after observing some acts from the Grammys…..)
I know, right??
He’s the antithesis of that Churchill quote: Show me a young Conservative and I’ll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I’ll show you someone with no brains. 😉
He has a very bright future. Thoughtfulness and critical thinking are increasingly difficult to find nowadays…
Brevity is the soul of wit.
I disagree with this sentiment. The majority of atheists in this generation were once theists, myself included. Baptised, raised, schooled. We actually know (and lived) that which we’re discussing, therefore ignorance isn’t a charge that sticks. Certain theists, fundamentalists and creationists, though, are highly ignorant. In fact, its worse: they’re willfully ignorant.
Christianity, though, is dying in the west. There’s tension in this generation, but the next will be far smoother with far less religious meddling.
John – I think you are right when it comes to theists who reject the findings of science. To believe that the earth and cosmos are only a few thousand years old and that Noah’s flood covered the whole earth, is willful ignorance. If Christians who hold to this kind of willful ignorance are dying out, it is a good thing.
Agreed, Marc. I think Quacks assertion might read better if “stubborn” replaces “ignorant.”
It’s a post from another blog that I found yesterday. “Stubborn” or “close-minded” would apply. Definitely.
You sure about “close-minded” for both? Atheism doesn’t have a guidebook, a set of rules or dogma, but a common theme is being open to hear arguments in the best tradition of the Enlightenment. Frustration arises when you hear the same argument 10 million times.
John – There are atheists who seem to draw upon the talking points taken from the guidebooks penned by Dawkins, Harris, Hitchen, and company in the same manner as theists who draw upon their sacred texts for talking points. I like your reference to the best tradition of the Enlightenment. If more atheists and theists would follow that tradition there would likely be more deists, and less conflict in this world…
People in general are close-minded these days, thanks to Google. Every opinion, no matter how ridiculous, can find another idiot to back it up and “validate” whatever it is. ‘Cause everyone knows, if it’s on the Internet, it must be true.
“Don’t believe everything you see on the internet” – Benjamin Franklin.
John – Old Ben was ahead of his time, but really?
You mean no one ever told you about that prophecy Marc? 😉
Howie – I hang out here because I always hope to be illuminated.
We learn something every day, don’t we? We silly band of wee willy wankers!
You are quite prepared to slay your Young Earth Christian brothers over the Flood issue, the Age of the Earth issue and lil ol’ T-Rex running around with Cavemen.
However…we must cut you some slack and extend you intellectual credibility because you think your man god walked on water and rose from the dead and was the Creator of the Universe?
Where do you lot get off? What a chuffing hypocrite…
When you say things like this you really make yourself look very, very silly….
The YEC’s, as nuts as they are, have a certain brand of honesty that your cherry-picking brand of theology will never have.
Yes, atheists are ignorant about a great many things. Christianity, however, is not one of them.
As scary as this may sound, I actually agree with Ark on this. Except for the last sentence.
However, despite common misconception on both sides of the aisle, the Book of Origin & Beginnings (BoOB) does not require adherence to YEC…
Ark – Your capacity to bring inflammatory nonsense into a discussion is a great disappointment.
Real Christians do not slay anyone who disagrees with them. We try to bring them to reason and leave them to God’s mercy if they can’t deal with reality.
You seem to be so set against any spiritual reality, that you are more defensive about theists who accept scientific knowledge, than the religious who reject science all together.
You are terribly ignorant about the ancient Christian Faith, so my assignment for you and Quack is to do your homework so that you can both deal with, and discard your considerable baggage.
My baggage is generally light. I hate dragging stuff around.
I have checked your homework Quack, and you are relieved of your baggage.
Ark is still being retained at airport security because his baggage is full of some foul substance that could be a hazard to the public.
Read Quack’s reply. At least he has the decent to admit what you are too scared to even acknowledge
You are terribly ignorant about the ancient Christian Faith</blockquote.
If you say so….
You are terribly ignorant about the ancient Christian Faith</blockquote.
If you say so….
John – I am interested to know about the many Rabbis who have concluded that the Scriptural revelation is a myth. Have they embraced atheism or deism?
Good question. Hard to answer as no direct survey has been taken that I’m aware of. Biblical criticism is taught in all seminaries and from everything I heard the majority of non-Orthodox rabbis today are fully aware of the mythological nature of the texts. The Humanist movement are outright atheists. The Reconstructionists were predominantly atheist but from what I understand have sort of shifted more to deism. Their 1986 platform reads: “There is no such thing as divine intervention. The Bible was not inspired by God. The classical view of God is rejected.” Jewish Science is out-and-out 1960’s spiritualism, so it’s hard to say what they actually believe in except for universal energies… which is nice. Then you have the two big groups: Reform and Conservative. Both are theistic (although Reform temples do have some non-theistic services), but it’s really hard to understand where actually they stand. Rabbi Wolpe, for instance, openly concedes the Pentateuch is complete bunk and that there was never a Conquest, yet he then does a midair pirouette and says that god still exists… Despite the fact that he’s just tossed out the validity of the very parts of the Tanakh which actually introduce that god. His evidence is the Jewish people. That’s what he says: the fact that the Jews are still around is proof (to him) that god exists. Rabbi Falick, an atheist, of the Birmingham Temple loathes Wolpe for this. He wrote me an email riling against his nonsense which made me laugh.
Did you read my posts on it all? These two verge a little on what you’re asking.
Yeah, not sure how to go about carving up the “correct” versus “less-correct” parts, when it all claims to be the revelation of the Divine. Seems the Divine would be able to get the facts straight, particularly about mundane stuff like history. To me, it loses pretty much any and all claims to higher knowledge.
So this is where it all becomes a game of “gotcha” — and all the many peeps who depend upon this for their livelihood blather on and on in endless futile debate.
The great “aha!” moment will never transpire. Either way.
The “aha!” moment has already come and gone. Rabbis admitting the Masoretic Text and Deuteronomic history is inventive myth was it. It ruins Jesus’ credibility as he names Moses many times and even says he wrote about him. This is rather awkward.
Thanks, John. I had read your November essay before, but it was good to read it again with your December work.
I think this changing perspective in the Jewish community is already shared by many former Christians. Many Christians approach and interpret the Old Testament in a different way than most Jewish believers, so time will tell how this plays out for the larger Christian community. I suspect it will have more impact on Protestants, than either Orthodox Catholic or Roman Catholic Christians.
Given the animosity between Muslims and Jews and the unique nature of the Islamic sacred texts, I suspect there would be less impact among the Muslims.
I agree with you regarding Catholics. I grew up Catholic and i don’t recall the OT being referenced once. The problem, though, is that its the only reference material for the Christian (and Muslim) god. Remove that and you don’t have an Abrahamic god, which is a little embarrassing 🙂
It will be interesting to see how much weight the prevailing findings of the Jewish Rabbis and scholars will have John. As I tried to demonstrate in one of our previous discussions, it is very hard to eliminate the possibility of an individual’s existence based upon archaeology because of the “needle in the haystack’ reality. I understand from your works that there is more to the Jewish findings than archaeology, but some of the reasoning is cultural and may not get much traction in many Christian communities.
For those of us who see the Bible as an important part, but not the totality of divine revelation, I doubt that there will be much impact. We Orthodox Catholic Christians tend to give the most weight to the four Gospels, followed by the Epistles, followed by the Psalms, followed by the rest of the Old Testament. We accept that errors due to translation, and figures of speech can effect interpretation. For the “sola scriptura” Christians who believe that the Bible they read literally is without error, their house of cards could be in danger. Although some may become atheists or deists, some may become Orthodox Catholics.
It will have no effect on Islam/Quran/Muhammad.
All archaeological excavations have been done with reference to Bible and the events mentioned in Bible; none is with reference to Quran.
Quran does mention the names of Moses and Abraham but does not mention other details mentioned in Bible.
It rather confirms as stated by Quran that the followers of Bible had been playing with the text of their scripture.
John, my view is the young have been disHeartened from the christian faiths by causes not so unreasonable. Catholicism got what it deserved, and its new big cheese Francis is running the same old rhetoric.. which doesn’t say anything meaningful to the young.
The multitude of protestant faiths is a more complex issue, but in a nutshell, those faiths rally behind the same old banner.. Jesus is your saviour, and if you don’t believe in Jesus, you’ll be cast into eternal hell and suffering !
The young are too savy for those fear-mongering tactics. What they’re in need of a voice which explains what Love is, what this life is, and generally, God and Jesus hold a True affection for and tolerance of they which agree Love is our need and belief.
I am GJPaul.wordpress.com – Protesting the material universe’s harmful, killing life-order, and priviledged witness of various loving mystical persons involved in this life.
From my blog Home page … ” Some facts which defy science ”
What is material death ?
In my view :
When in the Gospels and John’s Revelation, Jesus warns of death for offenders and non-believers, He is not saying their end to being nor consciousness, but they will continue to exist and be aware, and feel and speak and act, yet without peace.
In the cirumstance of an infinite host, which the eternal non-material cosmos is, an infinite number of sub-constructs can be made to exist. This provides for an infinite number of sub-realities, sothen each offender can be given the opportunity to reform their souls directly according to their earthly lives offences.
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The Interminable Frozen Pond
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